Coordination Meeting 2024

[pllim]

Like #255 but for 2024 meeting, since I think collecting ideas on an issue had been pretty successful for the 2023 meeting.

2024 meeting wiki

Running notes from 2023 meeting

Project roadmap

[pllim]

@WilliamJamieson and @nstarman might propose a topic related to array API, though this depends on how stable the array API is by the time this meeting happens. Also see:

• units and constants and NEP 42 astropy#13460
• Cannot create a Quantity with the new numpy.array_api astropy#15071
• modeling should be compliant with numpy.array_api astropy#15072
• NDData should be compliant with numpy.array_api astropy#15073
• https://data-apis.org/array-api/latest/ (Scipy 2023 talk)

[jdswinbank]

Suggestions of SOC meeting, 2023-11-28:

• Ask new roles (e.g. community manager) to introduce themselves and tell us they have been / will be doing.
• Reports from funded projects

[pllim]

Re: ask new roles -- Also @taldcroft can report on mentoring progress.

[hamogu]

Suggestion for topic, coming out of the dev-telecon: Discussion of Science platforms (e.g. SciServer, ...) Do we recommend any? Do we want to maintain our own at some point? Do we want to test any? Do we need to do anything to make it work better? Or make it work less (evil_grin)?

[pllim]

@hamogu can provide a debrief on how that contracting work initiative has worked out. By this meeting, both contracts with Clément and Mridul would have ended. Also see:

• https://github.com/astropy/astropy-project/blob/main/finance/proposal-calls/cycle3/user-dev-support-rse.md

(If this counts as "funded projects" in #349 (comment) , then feel free to resolve this comment as duplicate. I was not sure. Thanks!)

[pllim]

Review and discuss @nstarman proposed APE 22 on Public API:

• APE 22: Public API astropy-APEs#85

[pllim]

Exploratory implemetation of mypy in typing efforts (maybe it can drive some discussions on how to actually do this for real):

• Add mypy configuration file that ignores existing errors on a per-file and per-error basis astropy#15794
• Add a tox environment to run mypy for static type checking astropy#15815
• ci: mypy config astropy#16312

[pllim]

Princess Bride screening for the benefit of @dhomeier , as requested by @eteq .

[pllim]

Maybe a demo at the meeting?

@nstarman on 2024-01-16

Hi! I've created and am continuing to refine a GPT for Astronomy in Python using the Astropy ecosystem. I've trained it on (in order of priority) Astropy, the coordinated packages, and all affiliate packages. Here's the link if you want to try it out https://chat.openai.com/g/g-oucCOdFuw-astronomy-python-copilot. Let me know if there are any improvements you'd like to see!

Disclaimer (as reported by laurent.michel on that Slack conversation): Testing this API requires to sign-in for ChatGPT+ (20$/month).

[hamogu]

Quantity 2.0 (led by @nstarman):

• Quantity 2.0 astropy-APEs#91

PL edit: Maybe related?

• units and constants and NEP 42 astropy#13460

[pllim]

If this issue is still open:

• DOC: Make ruff less rough for new contributors astropy#16035

[pllim]

Astropy in the age of The Cloud (AWS):

• Do not include tests in Astropy wheels (reduce wheel size for AWS Lambda) astropy#16152
• BUG: Fix loading parser tabs on pyc-only installations astropy#16159

[kelle]

If anyone wants to work on this and needs support for the ChatGPT+ subscription, please post in #finance-committee on Slack or send an email to finance@astropy.org.

[pllim]

If there is still no consensus on this APE 0 term limit proposal by the meeting, I say we just put it to a vote at the Coordination Meeting and be done with it. Though I think as per policy, all the 5 current CoCo members are not allowed to vote accept/reject this.

• APE0: Coco term limits and Ombudsperson astropy-APEs#89

[kelle]

I don't understand why you think CoCo5 can't vote since they have the ultimate authority. Isn't it up to CoCo5 to decide the method used to decide?

[astrofrog]

APE 0 says that the CoCo doesn't have the authority to accept/reject APE 0 or modify the governance of the project - however it's not clear to me that they can't vote if they are voting members.

[pllim]

Ah, ok... I guess I confused the different ways we can be involved.

[mhvk]

Session on what, if anything, should be changed/improved in the core astropy classes. For instance,

• Changes in implementations?
  • coordinates - currently, frames can be with and without data. Wouldn't it be cleaner if they never held data (i.e., the representation is SkyCoords worry)? (arose in discussion with @adrn)
  • coordinates.representations - can we somehow make the linkage of derivatives with their representations less painful/circular? (vaguely recall this came up in talking to @nstarman, but not sure, may have been @adrn).
  • time - the data is almost exclusively dealt with in the Time class, yet stored on the format. Should it be on Time? Alternatively, should TimeFormat be a subclass of ShapedLikeNDArray such that it can deal with reshaping, etc.
  • table - might it be time to merge QTable and Table, allowing float Column with units only if explicitly set?
• Improvements
  • coordinates - Can we add accelerations?
  • io.fits - native use of Quantity and other classes? (e.g., in headers: (issue, old PR)
  • Support Masked and Distribution for all core classes. How would this work?
  • Support Array API so all big classes can deal with dask, etc.?
  • Any big performance bottlenecks?

More generally, are there any big missing pieces? E.g.,

• Error propagation?

[nstarman]

coordinates.representations - can we somehow make the linkage of derivatives with their representations less painful/circular? (vaguely recall this came up in talking to @nstarman, but not sure, may have been @adrn).

I was advocating that we make a Space (e.g. phase-space) class that is a dictionary of Representation, Differential, etc objects + representation transformation machinery. This is basically moving the Representation.differentials out of Representation and into a composed class. Combined with a better separation of coordinate frames and data we get something like this:

>>> import astropy.coordinates as coord

# Representation objects
>>> q = coord.CartesianRepresentation(...)
>>> p = coord.CartesianDifferential(...)

# Collection thereof
>>> cart_space = coord.Space(length=q, speed=p)  # parametrized by the physical type
>>> cart_space
Space({PhysicalType("length"): CartesianRepresentation(...), PhysicalType("speed"): CartesianDifferential(...)})

>>> sph_space = cart_space.represent_as(length=coord.SphericalRepresentation)
>>> sph_space
Space({PhysicalType("length"): SphericalRepresentation(...), PhysicalType("speed"): SphericalDifferential(...)})

>>> sph_space = cart_space.represent_as(length=coord.CylindricalRepresentation, speed=coord.SphericalDifferential)
>>> sph_space
Space({PhysicalType("length"): CylindricalRepresentation(...), PhysicalType("speed"): SphericalDifferential(...)})

# With frames
>>> frame = coord.ICRS()
>>> c = SkyCoord(sph_space, frame=frame)

# There are many ways to initialize
>>> c = SkyCoord(length=q, speed=p, frame=frame)
>>> isinstance(c.data, coord.Space)
True

# There are all the same ways to initialize
>>> c = SkyCoord(ra=..., dec=...)
>>> isinstance(c.data, coord.Space)
True

[mhvk]

Thanks! Seems well worth discussing in more detail. The one piece that worries me is the example of cylindrical representation with spherical differential - interpreting the differentials requires one to know about the corresponding representation - but I can see the Space class in principle taking care of that. Adding accelerations would force us to think this through more clearly.

[pllim]

Discuss what we can do based on report from Astropy Community Survey.

• Update the Help page in response to Astropy Community Engagement survey astropy.github.com#581

[pllim]

Also related to ruff (#349 (comment)):

@astrofrog -- We should have policy to limit manually adding/enforcing new ruff rules to avoid open PR conflicts.

[kelle]

Celebrate the completion of the Moore grant!! 💸🎉

[taldcroft]

Celebrate the completion of the Moore grant!! 💸🎉

Also discuss lessons-learned thus far and big-picture plans for maintaining sustainable funding for Astropy.

[taldcroft]

I'm not necessarily advocating this, but it might be worth discussing dual anonymous proposal review. Maybe impractical for our small community, but we also cannot pretend that bias is non-existent. Interesting study from NASA's use of DAPR:
https://science.nasa.gov/researchers/dual-anonymous-peer-review/

(Single) anonymous reviews is also something to discuss.

[pllim]

Re: Anonymous review -- Wasn't this what we just abandoned for Affiliated Package review in favor of all open review via pyOpenSci? Would it make sense to introduce anon review for one thing but abandon it for another? Also, not sure how feasible it is when we submit proposals etc all in the open.

[pllim]

Suggested by @hamogu , discuss Strategic Planning role proposed:

• Add strategic planning role astropy.github.com#584

[dhomeier]

Discuss findings and recommendations from the State of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion report

[pllim]

Package/code/build security:

• Improve our security practices, in particular around binary files astropy#16371

[nden]

Tentative Agenda

It is based on the topics in this issue.
To increase participation from the US the schedule is inverted - plenary discussions and reports are in the afternoon and breakout sessions in the morning (local time). The schedule is shifted by one hour 9 am - 6 pm (assuming the building is open until 6, J.S. to check).
Please comment below if anything should be added/removed/moved.

Monday

09:00 AM - 12:30 PM : general / break out session TBD
12:30 PM - 02:00 PM: Lunch
2:00 - 2:30: State of Astropy (Derek)
2:30 - 3:00: Roadmap: Annual review (Clara) discussion can continue later if not enough time
3:00 - 3:15: Coffee break
3:15 - 5:30: Finance (Aarya)

• Report from the finance committee
• Report on funded projects
• Celebrate the completion of the Moore grant
• Discuss lessons learned and big-picture plans for maintaining sustainable funding for Astropy
• Discuss proposal reviews

5:30 - 6:00: vote on breakout sessions for Tuesday

Tuesday

9:00 - 12:30: breakout sessions
12:30 - 2:00: lunch
2:00 - 2:30: State of APEs

• APE21 - Tom R. or Pey-Lian
• APE22 - Pey-Lian or another author
• APE0 changes (Moritz)

2:30 - 3:00: Community engagement (DEI, and community report) (Erik T)
3:00 - 3:30: Discussion on strategic planning role (Kelle)
3:30 - 4:00 coffee
4:00 - 4:30: infrastructure report (Pey-Lian or someone else on the infrastructure team)
4:30 - 5:00: technical discussion: typing
5:00 - 5:30: technical discussion: array API
5:30: 6:00: vote on breakout sessions for Wednesday

Wednesday

9:00 - 12:30: breakout sessions
12:30 - 2:00: lunch
2:00 - 2:30: Discussion: Are there big missing pieces in the astropy ecosystem?
2:30 - 3:00: Status and plans for spectral work in astropy
3:00 - 3:30: coffee break
3:30 - 4:00: Is ruff working for us (could be a breakout session)
4:00 - 6:00: TBD

Thursday

Hack day/breakout sessions

Friday

Hack day/breakout sessions

[eteq]

@nden - can we swap "community engagement" and "discussion of strategic planning"? The community engagement contractors are not going to be there (since they are no longer funded), so I'll take that, and @kelle will do the strategic planning discussion... But we are thinking it makes sense in the other order because some of the community report items might naturally lead into the strategic planning.

[pllim]

As per CoCo tag-up on 2024-05-13, here are what CoCo agreed on but this is just a suggestion, not a mandate. FYI SOC:

• What @eteq said in Coordination Meeting 2024 #349 (comment) (cc @kelle)
  • "Community engagement (DEI, and community report)" should also discuss Roles: Remove sub-role for community engagement coordinator astropy.github.com#524
• State of Astropy (CoCo) can be presented by @dhomeier
• Roadmap: Annual review (CoCo) can be presented/led by @ceb8
  • Roadmap 2024 - Community Input #424
• State of APEs can be presented/led by one of the CoCo members or APE authored of new APEs accepted since Astropy Coordination Meeting 2023 (APE 21 and APE 22) unless SOC already has someone in mind.
• infrastructure report can be presented/led by @pllim BUT she would rather her European colleague(s) who also do infrastructure take over if they want to (in-person or remote), e.g., @saimn .

[pllim]

3:30 - 4:00: Is ruff working for us (could be a breakout session)
4:00 - 6:00: TBD

I am not sure if everyone in the meeting would be interested in ruff for it to warrant a dedicated slot. 🤔

When we will know what goes in the last 2 hours of TBD?

Is the "field trip" going to happen?

[nden]

Thanks @pllim . I updated the agenda.

We left the last two TBD hours for suggestions here or during the meeting. There are other suggestions on this issue that can fill in those slots, including technical topics.

[jdswinbank]

The schedule is shifted by one hour 9 am - 6 pm (assuming the building is open until 6, J.S. to check).

It isn't, sorry; the building will be open 09:00 until 17:00.

[jdswinbank]

The building can provide:

• Lunch for €10.43 per person
• Soft drinks for €4.75 per person
• Drinks with soft drinks, beer, wine, crisps and nuts for €8 per person

Are we interested in any of these — perhaps lunch?

[taldcroft]

Lunch for €10.43 per person

What options does that Lunch include? How does this compare to walking-distance options if we go out? I am guessing there are plenty of nearby options and in general it might be nice to get out of the building and walk a bit and get some fresh air.

Personally I don't do soft drinks.

[pllim]

I don't do soft drinks either. Coffee, wine, yes.

[pllim]

Re: #349 (comment)

Oh no, so we just lost an hour from each day on the proposed agenda? Should we start earlier (for those in-person)? (Nope, nvm... opens at 9)

[pllim]

Is there a place with food and wifi for evening hacking? (Usually I think this is when "plane hacks" happen? 😆 )

[jdswinbank]

What options does that Lunch include?

(They write) We order the SURF lunch as standard. But you can also order one of our other lunches. The different types of lunches are vegetarian/vegan and served with semi-skimmed milk, orange juice and hand fruit as standard. For all lunches, sandwiches with cheese and meat are served separately. Any allergies or dietary requirements? That's no problem either! Just mention it when making your reservation and we will take them into account.

SURF lunch

These sandwiches are filled with Dutch cheese and meat.
2 small malt/dough rolls
1 hard roll / assortment of sandwiches
milk/buttermilk
hand fruit

Sandwich lunch

Tasty richly filled 3-layer sandwiches, brown, corn and white bread (2 per person) topped with a.o:
old cheese with pear syrup and fresh pickled lettuce (vega)
classic BLT sandwich, toasted with turkey and mild mustard mayonnaise
ham on the bone with cheese, tomato, cucumber and egg salad
roast beef with basil pesto and pecorino cheese
mozzarella, tomato with pesto sauce (vega)

Italian lunch

An Italian experience of freshly baked luxury breads and Italian toppings with matching garnishes and dressings:
foccacia with various Italian cold meats
mini spelt or malt bun with various vegetarian Italian toppings (vega )
mini spelt or malt bun with Italian fish fillings

French farmer's lunch

Our most popular lunch with delicious French products and French viennoiseries:
luxury 3-layer sandwich filling
freshly baked baguette or cereal roll with toppings and garnish
assortment of freshly baked viennioserie: croissants and sultana or cinnamon rolls

Wrap lunch

3 tasty richly filled wraps (1/3)
wrap with farm cheese, egg salad and mixed lettuce
wrap with grilled chicken, avocado, lettuce and sweet chilli sauce
wrap with smoked salmon, herb cheese, cucumber and lettuce

Antoine Lunch

1/5 wrap with various fillings including farm cheese, avocado, chicken curry salad
tramezzini roll with a.o. salmon and carpaccio
artisanal breads with a delicious assortment of dressings and local toppings including farm cheese, goat's cheese and cold cuts

How does this compare to walking-distance options if we go out?

We are within walking distance of central Utrecht. There are many, many options. Because most of the nice places are small and old, and because it will be summer, they tend to be cramped; fine for a small group, but it may be challenging to find a spot where ~10 people can sit together, specially if they want space to be able to look at laptops etc.

[aaryapatil]

A note that I will present the finance committee update (and happy to run the session). I see that 3:15 - 5:30 is allocated to finance with a few broad goals. How long should the update be?

[jdswinbank]

Is there a place with food and wifi for evening hacking? (Usually I think this is when "plane hacks" happen? 😆 )

There are many places with food and wifi. And beer. I can't speak to how crowded they'll be on a June evening, but I'm sure we'll find somewhere nice.

https://dutchreview.com/expat/places-to-work-or-study-utrecht/ might be a good place to start.

[pllim]

I don't see any Princess Bride screening scheduled (#349 (comment)). Should we do it over one of the lunches? Is there DVD playing capability in the lunch area?

[jdswinbank]

A reminder to everybody who hasn't yet registered to please do so at https://forms.gle/3RpzjP8a83HfYLBj6, especially if you will be attending in person.

[pllim]

Agenda is finalized. Topics that didn't make it to main agenda are added to "Possible breakout/hack/sprint topics". Since we no longer accept new suggestions at this point, I am closing this issue. See you soon!

[mhvk]

Just wondering: the agenda states a trip possibly on Thursday June 13. This should be June 14 as per the e-mail for sign-up for that, no?

[pllim]

The trip was moved up to June 13 (Thurs)

[pllim]

@mhvk , I keep forgetting you are not on Slack and might have missed some discussions. I updated the meeting wiki. Please reach out if you have questions or concerns.

[mhvk]

OK, good to know. I've contacted John to let him know that means my partner won't be able to join the trip (nor perhaps me, depending on when we return to Utrecht).